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Wiki Education assignment: FYSEM-UA 900 Busting 11 myths about the archaeology of human evolution

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 31 January 2022 and 13 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): ArjunChikkappa (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Jaelienrivera.

Undiscussed move

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This article was moved from colonization to exploration, without any discussion or consensus, by a request initiated by @Treetoes023. From what I recall on this talk page, such a change was previously discussed and did not reach consensus, the article clearly discusses settlements (colonies) and also the concept itself of Norse colonization, so I don't think the name was wrong or that the new name is an improvement. This should have been discussed here first, and I think until consensus is reached the page should be moved back to its prior name. TylerBurden (talk) 02:41, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted the move because of the previous RM. Srnec (talk) 02:54, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The revert back to this (colonization) was good. That being said, this article is mild about the terrors norsemen surely did. I don't have a source on hand right now, but they probably genocided a many tribes and this article doesn't really represent that. I'm sure someone has a media contact to cook up a article on that so we can get a source and add it to this article! Good work everyone! ProfessionalHiistorian (talk) 01:37, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some basics reading ....."Norse-Indigenous Contact". The Canadian Encyclopedia. 2024-10-25. Moxy🍁 04:25, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Cook up an article" in the media? I'd like to show good faith, but this sounds as though you are trolling. Doug Weller talk 08:45, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

True discoverers of Greenland.

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This page doesn’t mention anything about Gunnbjörn Ulfsson who was the first to sight Greenland and Snæbjörn galti Hólmsteinsson who was the first to land on Greenland in 978. Plus on Erik the Red’s biography it says he landed on Greenland in 982 but here it says 986. MaxwellWinnie102 (talk) 23:12, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Are you referring to Gunnbjörn's skerries? Moxy- 00:27, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Attempting to remove a false statement.

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A long apologia for an outdated source.

I hope to see this brief statement removed because it is false--- "There are many claims of Norse colonization in New England, none well founded."

Well, here is the problem.... Many people today have been led to believe that only rank amateurs and starry-eyed romantics believe the Norse exploration of North America includes the area of New England. In fact, the weight of scholarly opinion has placed Vinland in the area of southern New England- for well over 100 years now. See page eight of Magnusson and Palsson's 40-page introduction in "The Vinland Sagas', [Penguin Classics]. They wrote-

"...generally speaking, the most acceptable interpretation of the elusive information in the sagas suggests that Vinland was somewhere in the New England region, and the majority of scholars have inclined to this view."

Some Canadians who are heavily invested in L'anse aux Meadows don't like to hear this, but it is still true today over sixty years after Magnusson & Palsson made that observation. Theories placing Vinland in Southern New England ARE well founded. Even Carl Ortwin Sauer, remembered today as America's greatest Geographer of the 20th century believed so, and added his two-cents to the Vinland debate in his 1968 book "Northern Mists." See Facebook- "Vikings? On Cape Cod? for more... 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6 (talk) 12:43, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where are yours sources? You should have two or three contemporary quality secondary sources, not one that is fifty years old. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 21:32, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even after all this time [1965], Magnusson and Palsson's introduction and translation of the two sagas is so highly regarded, I dare say it "...stands alone." It appears in most every recent bibliography that covers this topic. Sure its old, but it's one of those books that is considered 'essential reading' if you really plan to study this topic. It's really difficult to see how anyone could regard it as "outdated."
But I will produce other sources.
Carl's Sauer's "Seventeenth Century North America" [1980] contains this line [page 11]--
"Vinland was placed in southern New England by early well informed students. Later, others located it in northern Newfoundland, inferring either a climate much milder than at present or that vin did not signify grapes. Reviewing what the sagas said of plants, animals, and people, I found additional evidence in support of Vinland as having been in southern New Egland, the climate as at present."
He presented his additional evidence in the 1968 book "Northern Mists".
Many people today think theories locating Vinland in New England as "...unfounded."
It would be difficult to dismiss anything Carl Sauer had to say on the topic as "Fringe.
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"Wikipedia on verifiability... means other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than editors' beliefs, opinions, experiences, or previously unpublished ideas or information. Even if you are sure something is true, it must have been previously published in a reliable source before you can add it. If reliable sources disagree with each other, then maintain a neutral point of view and present what the various sources say, giving each side its due weight."
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"Fringe theories and pseudoscience"
"Pseudoscientific theories are presented by proponents as science but characteristically fail to adhere to scientific standards and methods. Conversely, by its very nature, scientific consensus is the majority viewpoint of scientists towards a topic."
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Magnusson and Palsson made it clear in 1965 that "...the majority of scholars..." had inclined to the view that Vinland was in New England. No serious challenge to that statement has been made since then. 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6 (talk) 23:24, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding your claim that "No serious challenge to that statement has been made since then". This is your original research, dismissive of scholarship since 1965. Contra your assertion, just to cite one example that gives the lie to this statement, Davide Zori in the "7 Stories of Vínland: The End of the Viking Horizon" chapter of his 2023 book, Age of Wolf and Wind: Voyages through the Viking World, says:
A large body of scholarship has attempted to harmonize the places mentioned in the sagas with North American geography and the single New World Viking archaeological site at L’Anse aux Meadows. Most commonly, scholars have assigned this archaeological site to one of the Vínland settlements remembered in the sagas.
Sauer may have been a great geographer, but he was not so great a historian discussing these matters in his outdated book Northern Mists (1968), mainly because he is speculating, drawing rather sweeping conclusions from the scantest historical evidence. It is true that he advocates for identification of New England with Vinland, but he also proposes that the Irish began a westward advance in the 5th century and that they landed in Iceland a century before the Norse, and then, under pressure from Viking settlers, that they continued on to Greenland and North America, where they settled Hvitramannaland—"Ireland the Great"—in the St. Lawrence River valley in the 10th century. In a further indication of how outdated this book is, Sauer deduces that the L'Anse aux Meadows settlement was Irish rather than Norse, citing the extensive evidence of ironworking at the site and carbon dating. I think this qualifies as fringe material. Carlstak (talk) 05:21, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When trying to decide how L'anse aux Meadows factors into the Vinland controversy, we all should keep in mind this statement made by Birgitta Wallace, the archeologist who worked closely with the Ingstad's at the site.
“…But even without a slavish acceptance of every word of the sagas, there are certain board suggestions which make it impossible to equate northern Newfoundland with Vinland. All scattered references to Vinland make it plain that, compared with Markland, Vinland was more bountiful, the weather was warmer, the tides were higher, the resources more exotic, and, above all, more varied.  As one source put it: the further south one traveled, the better the land became.”
[Page 300, The Norse Atlantic Saga, Gywn Jones, 2nd Edition, 1986]
Davide Zori may be reporting in his new book; - "Most commonly, scholars have assigned this archaeological site to one of the Vínland settlements remembered in the sagas."
...but he and others who believe this are only speculating. At the same time, they are ignoring the fact that northern Newfoundland simply does not match the picture of Vinland - as admitted by Wallace.
Southern New England on the other hand does match the picture - according to many reliable sources - such as Carl O. Sauer. 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6 (talk) 22:46, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More original research. We go by what reliable sources say, not by your personal opinion, which doesn't supersede a scholarly work published by Oxford Academic. You don't have a case—Carl O. Sauer is demonstrably not a reliable source with his extremely fringe claims that L'Anse aux Meadows was an Irish settlement. This is laughable given the state of archeological work done at the site and the data collected. Carlstak (talk) 23:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we have to remember butternuts were collected at L'anse aux Meadows --- clear evidence the Norse had traveled father south. .
And remember also that NO evidence of livestock was found, which conflicts with the saga reports that cattle had been taken to Vinland.
And speaking of "Oxford Academics", it's worth mentioning here Geoffrey M. Gathorne-Hardy. He also placed Vinland in southern New England in his 1921 book "The Norse Discoverers of America". Oxford University Press decided to reprint it in 1970.
His book has been described as "...a model of historical criticism, in a remote and difficult field."
Is he going to be dismissed as "unreliable" also?
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Policy statement from Wikipedia....
"All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6 (talk) 00:51, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia also says that greater weight must be given to more recent sources, which should be obvious anyway. You have been told that already but are conveniently ignoring it. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 01:13, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, now the IP is citing a source published in 1921, as if scholarship since then doesn't have more weight. This quixotic crusade is getting ridiculous, and is a waste of other editors' time. Carlstak (talk) 01:37, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would Gisli Sigurdsson’s “The Vinland Sagas” published in 2008 be satisfactory as a source?
He has some interesting comments about Vinland’s location and New England on page xxxv of the introduction;
“...How far south from here Karlsefni may have gone is impossible to tell with certainty but reasonable suggestions have been made for the coast of New England, and even as far as New York…”
“…And the headland on the way north from Hop recalls the only prominent headland between the Bay of Fundy and New York, namely Cape Cod.” 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6 (talk) 02:23, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All of which is speculative, and has no actual evidence to support it. Speculation is not fact. Mediatech492 (talk) 03:26, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes…, but it is a fact that highly credible academic researchers believed and continue to believe that Vinland was in southern New England, - in spite of a lack of concrete proof.
William Hovgaard,  A.W. Brogger, Askell Love, Einar Haugen and Carl Sauer were not alone in holding this view.
It is not a “fringe” idea supported only by amateurs.   2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6 (talk) 04:21, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That quoted text does not say that it says its a reasonable suggestion, that does not mean well founded. Slatersteven (talk) 08:09, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please clarify. The text you have in mind must be the same text pasted below. As I see it, the text does say it is "...reasonable..." to locate Vinland on the coast of New England or New York.
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Gisli Sigurdsson, "The Vinland Sagas", 2008 page xxxv
“...How far south from here [points north] Karlsefni may have gone is impossible to tell with certainty but reasonable suggestions have been made for the coast of New England, and even as far as New York…” 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6 (talk) 11:43, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There you have it "impossible to tell", it is not a well-founded theory as it can't be proved with any degree of certainty. Slatersteven (talk) 12:28, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And folklore isn't evidence for reality. .. Doug Weller talk 12:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is this folklore, or modern scholarship trying to link folklore to a specific region? Slatersteven (talk) 12:36, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Recommended reading would include chapter 7, "The Saga Map of Vinland" in Gilsli Sigurdsson's "The Medieval Icelandic Saga and Oral Tradition" 2004, distributed by Harvard University Press.

Something older - but a very quick read - would be Icelandic botanist Askell Love's 2-page paper from 1954- "Locating Vineland the Good." And then there is Robert Bergersen's 1997 "Vinland Bibliography; Writings Related to the Norse in Greenland and America." It is 411 pages long, with over 6000 entries.2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6 (talk) 16:43, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They discuss archaeology? Doug Weller talk 18:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On pages 278-279 Gisli Sigurdsson’s book has a heading—"Hoaxes, forgeries, and hard evidence”, - and he does a very good job quickly covering the topic.
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Final lines in Askell Love’s 1954 paper; - “…from the botanical evidence, it is concluded that the Icelandic settlement must have been situated somewhere on the coast from southern Maine to Long Island. From other geographical, nautical, and astronomical points of view it has been pointed out by several authors since Rafn's «Antiquitates Americanae» in 1837, that the Vineland settlements must have been on the southern shore of Cape Cod in Massachusetts. This is in line with the botanical testimony. All that is needed is archeological confirmation. It is highly desirable therefore that learned specialists from Scandinavia investigate archeological remains in this region before housing projects and unwise amateur archeologists have destroyed the possible evidence.  If the archeologist’s discoveries corroborate our other conclusions the «Vineland problem» will be solved.”
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Robert Bergersen’s bibliography must have hundreds of listings covering archeology. Birgitta Wallace wrote a 'thumbs up' review that might be online somewhere. 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6 (talk) 21:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So it again looks like that source provides little of value besides referencing something from 70 years ago. "We need more research" is not a particularly definitive statement. Similarly, I've looked at some more modern sources (ones you're seeming to leave out) like the work of Kristjánsson, Einarsson, Traustason among others that provides more comprehensive analysis of the relevant evidence. There is nothing to add beyond the simplest acknowledgement, but "Some scholars think they might be referring to parts of New England" is not particularly insightful. Wikipedia is not a repository for any and all hypotheses. Lostsandwich (talk) 00:02, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am aware of those three sources. If I recall, they all lean towards Newfoundland. Good time to remember what Birgitta Wallace has written, [see above]; "...there are certain board suggestions which make it impossible to equate northern Newfoundland with Vinland."
Harvard's Einar Haugen also rejected Newfoundland as Vinland...and he was firmly in favor of New England. Review his paper at this link- Was Vinland in Newfoundland? (archive.org) 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6 (talk) 02:28, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Of course you neglect to mention his conclusion to this 47-year-old address to the Eighth Viking Congress: "In conclusion I will say that I do not venture to propose any single location for the Vinland of the sagas. I am happy to recognize Newfoundland as its beginning and congratulate the Ingstads on their discoveries. But Newfoundland cannot be the end of Vinland." Quite typical of your arguments here. Carlstak (talk) 03:12, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Probably the most interesting line in Haugen's paper is this one-
"...there can be no doubt that New England fulfills the conditions described in the sagas better than does Newfoundland."
That was true in 1977-1981, and it is still true today.
As they say; "...it's in the literature." 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6 (talk) 03:40, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, continuing to rely on 40 year old works that make strong declarations with little to back them up, while ignoring anything written about the subject or that piece itself any time afterwards. Your opinion that "nothing changes that", despite considerable volume of work on that very subject very clearly indicates a very strong bias that violates WP:NOPV. Little "pet theories" do not belong on wikipedia. Lostsandwich (talk) 03:47, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are stating your personal opinions here.
This is not my 'little pet theory' as you say.
And I'm not ignoring anything at all. But I'm afraid people here are ignoring the large group of professional researchers who have located Vinland in New England in the past- and the researchers who continue to do so today.
The "new' research you appear to have in mind does not change things at all. New England still conforms to the picture of Vinland better than sites farther north. All the alleged 'Norse artifacts' presented to date in New England can be set aside... they have no bearing at all on the effort to find Vinland's actual location. 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6 (talk) 04:32, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When did Wallace say Vinland couldn't be equated with Newfoundland? What she did say in 2003 was " With Straumfjord in northern Newfoundland and Hóp in northeastern New Brunswick, Vinland can be defined. Vinland comprised the coastal region around the Gulf of St. Lawrence, from the Strait of Belle Isle in the north, to the Northumberland Strait in the south. L'Anse aux Meadows-Straumfjord was part of Vinland and was the gateway to its rare and valuable resources.' See her comments also on grapes and salmon.[1] Doug Weller talk 09:06, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Her definitive statement – from 1986 – is pasted above, but it bears repeating. She wrote, […in an appendix to Gwyn Jones, “The Norse Atlantic Saga”, 2nd Edition, Page 300];
“But even without a slavish acceptance of every word of the sagas, there are certain board suggestions which make it impossible to equate northern Newfoundland with Vinland.  All scattered references to Vinland make it plain that, compared with Markland, Vinland was more bountiful, the weather was warmer, the tides were higher, the resources more exotic, and, above all, more varied.  As one source put it: the further south one traveled, the better the land became.” 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:F15B:D5B2:1F4C:C0F (talk) 12:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see no reason not to accept her 2003 statement and assume she changed her mind about the one she made in 1986 . You keep writing "board", that must be broad". Doug Weller talk 12:50, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, ‘broad.’ Thank you for pointing that out.
The problem is that she made her earlier statement in such a definitive way; ["certain, clear, and not likely to change”, Cambridge Dictionary.]
Add to that all the other highly credible researchers who also reject Newfoundland as Vinland for many good reasons.  She may be promoting a “new and revised" view today, but it’s not convincing.  Her earlier statement IS convincing. 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:F15B:D5B2:1F4C:C0F (talk) 13:50, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If a person changes their mind, we take their new stance, not an older one. Slatersteven (talk) 13:57, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And you, IP, are not at all convincing with these misleading and obfuscatory arguments. You should know that what you think about what the sources say has no standing. Carlstak (talk) 14:23, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is very surprising to see you now claiming I am using “misleading and obfuscatory arguments.”  Please show where I’ve done that.  Maybe it involves something related to Carl O. Sauer’s 1968 study mentioned earlier?
More about Sauer later, but here is another source that I will let speak entirely on its own as I believe I usually do with all these sources.  Maybe you will be happy with this one, but probably not-- British journalist/writer J. R. L. Anderson’s 1967 book “Vinland Voyage.”
Vinland voyage : J. R. L. Anderson : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
J. R. L. Anderson - Wikipedia
Guardian expedition in search of Vinland sets sail from Scarborough - archive, 1966 | Sailing | The Guardian
In 1966 he put the Vinland saga navigation information to the test, sailing a 44-foot cutter from England to Iceland, and on to North America.  He ended the voyage by sailing into Nantucket Sound and going ashore on Martha’s Vineyard Island.  If you want to be truly informed about the Vinland debate, be sure to take the time to read his book.
Here are a few of many quotes from it that speak firmly against Newfoundland as Vinland.
Pg. 111- “There is a Newfoundland school in modern Vinland history, which holds that the main Norse settlements in Vinland were on Newfoundland. This theory has attractions, but there are grave objections to it. The more I considered my own studies, and what I learned in Iceland, the more improbable it seemed to me that Vinland was to be found in Newfoundland.”
Page 196- “It may be useful here to sum up briefly the main arguments against Newfoundland as the location of Vinland. First, there are the sagas themselves. If these saga records embody real history it seems to me impossible to discount all the topographical descriptions of Vinland that they give.”
Page 199- “The topographical evidence against Newfoundland is so formidable that alone it seems to me convincing.” 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:F15B:D5B2:1F4C:C0F (talk) 16:17, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At this point, you're just bludgeoning the page. Give it a rest—you're going nowhere with this and you know it. This is hot air, very tiresome and unproductive. I suggest that if you really want to contribute to WP, you should start working on editing articles where you might actually accomplish something. Carlstak (talk) 17:45, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, you appear to be posting from New Bedford, Massachusetts, which would explain a lot. Carlstak (talk) 03:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What sir, does it explain? 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6 (talk) 03:47, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It explains this obsessive focus on New England being Vinland, and why you are so willing to distort what your own outdated sources say. Carlstak (talk) 03:52, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can close this, as it is now circular. Slatersteven (talk) 10:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. If no hard evidence can be shown for this, then it's time to move along. Mediatech492 (talk) 11:50, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I firmly disagree. You are attempting to shut down discussion covering a topic that has been under debate for over 300 years now.   2601:18E:C380:1DC0:F15B:D5B2:1F4C:C0F (talk) 14:12, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've added more modern sources and slightly expanded that section. (Feel free to trim anything out, if I've gone off topic.) Regarding Carl O. Sauer and J. R. L. Anderson, more recent peer-reviewed work within the field of history contradicts their speculations. It's not especially weird for someone highly respected in one field to publish something out of pocket in another (see WP:PULP). Rjjiii (talk) 02:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please point to this "recent peer-reviewed work" that contradicts Sauer and Anderson. Anton W. Brogger, G.M.Gathorne-Hardy, Askell Love are other researchers who place Vinland in southern New England. Rockawaypoint (talk) 05:51, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems there is no "recent peer reviewed work" that contradicts what Carl Sauer and J.R.L Anderson added to the Vinland debate. Or is there? Can you supply a source? Rockawaypoint (talk) 21:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Please produce this “…more recent peer-reviewed work that contradicts their speculations." Who wrote it, and where can we read it? Will Magnus Magnusson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Magnusson and his co-author Herman Palsson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_P%C3%A1lsson,"…one of the most distinguished scholars of Icelandic studies of his generation"— continue to be dismissed here as "unreliable" or "out of date"? Their 1965 book "The Vinland Sagas" is still considered to be essential reading in this field. Someone also claimed above that Carl O. Sauer, the highly respected geographer, was "...fringe…" for proposing that Irish Monks may have crossed the Atlantic before the 11th century Icelanders and Greenlanders. Sauer’s proposal was never considered as “fringe” by mainstream historians. It may have been “bold,” but it rested on widely accepted sources such as Dicuil, Ari the Learned, and Landnamabok, that suggested Irish Monks may have reached both Iceland and Greenland before the Norse did. Professional historian Charles E. Nowell (1904–1984) https://read.dukeupress.edu/hahr/article/67/3/497/147772/Charles-E-Nowell-1904-1984 accepted Sauer's proposal. In a book review in Jan. 1973 Geo. Review, Nowell said Sauer’s proposal that L’anse aux Meadows “…could as well have been Irish as Norse," was worthy of recognition. The claim made above that Carl O. Sauer is “fringe,” or an “unreliable source” is ridiculous. 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:F15B:D5B2:1F4C:C0F

Ah, IP, you're misrepresenting what I said by leaving out the meat of the matter concerning the fringeness of Sauer's speculations in his book Northern Mists:
"...then, under pressure from Viking settlers [in Iceland], that they continued on to Greenland and North America, where they settled Hvitramannaland—"Ireland the Great"—in the St. Lawrence River valley in the 10th century. In a further indication of how outdated this book is, Sauer deduces that the L'Anse aux Meadows settlement was Irish rather than Norse, citing the extensive evidence of ironworking at the site and carbon dating." I know of no recently published works by reliable sources that would would support these fantastic theories. Carlstak (talk) 15:13, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Carlstak, ...review just above, - "...Professional historian Charles E. Nowell (1904–1984) accepted Sauer's proposal. In Jan. 1973 Geo. Review, Nowell said Sauer’s proposal that L’anse aux Meadows “…could as well have been Irish as Norse," was worthy of recognition. Rockawaypoint (talk) 15:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop adding adjectives suggesting argument by authority. - if they are a historian, they are a professional. Doug Weller talk 16:44, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IT may have been "worthy of recognition" 52 years ago, but it doesn't hold water now. The archaeological data gathered from the excavations at L'Anse aux Meadows proves conclusively that the settlers were Norse, not Irish. You really should know this. Historiorgraphy and archaeology are not static. Carlstak (talk) 00:45, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This "concern" you have that Carl Sauer's suggestion that L'Anse aux Meadows might be an Irish site is a bit odd to say the very least. Again, it comes across as only your opinion there is a problem here. Sauer was not alone in entertaining the idea that the Irish had been there before the Norse. The Irish got to Iceland before the Norse "You really should know this." And when looked at objectively, the evidence found at L'Anse aux Meadow can really only be deemed as evidence of early 'Northern Europeans', and not necessarily exclusively "Norse" Europeans. The archeological and 'other' data found at L'Anse aux Meadow has only directed the search farther to the south. Just about all in-depth 'reviews' of what was found there say it is NOT a site in Vinland. Rockawaypoint (talk) 01:04, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You like the IP above, are misrepresenting what I said. I originally quoted the bit that included a mention of the Irish preceding the Norse in Iceland, which is commonly accepted today. I didn't say that wasn't true. I'm not arguing in favor of the proposition that Newfoundland is Vinland, I'm arguing that Sauer is not a reliable source for supporting the contention that Newfoundland isn't Vinland, or that it may be New England instead. We can't use statements on the subject he made a half-century ago as if they are representative of the present-day state of knowledge, limited as it may be. Regarding L'Anse aux Meadow, you don't know what you're talking about and you're wasting our time. Carlstak (talk) 02:01, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Why is the debate over Vinland even in this article? Was just about to remove this back and forth debate that is on the wrong page. People are interested in learning more about Vinland they'll go to that article. We'll move this over shortly. Moxy🍁 02:08, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Vinland is mentioned about 28 times in this article. Are you expressing only your own opinion? Rockawaypoint (talk) 03:15, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
What do you claim it is that I don't know what I'm talking about regarding L'Anse aux Meadows? I went out of my way to visit the place.  ;) It's pretty barren looking up there. The word 'barren' is often used to describe it. I strongly disagree that Sauer is no longer a reliable source about Vinland. Sure, new information come to light. What do you think the 'current' state of knowledge is today?
Check out what people remember about Carl Sauer.
To Pass On a Good Earth: The Life and Work of Carl O. Sauer on JSTOR
7 “The Great God West of the Sierras”
(pp. 101-114)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt6wrkvn.14
Sauer’s prestige but also aloofness had become legendary. In 1937 his old Chicago friend and mentor Wellington Jones urged him to attend the upcoming Association of American Geographers’ annual meeting in Ann Arbor “and show yourself to a whole generation of younger geographers who think you are a semi-mythical personage on the Pacific Coast. I cannot indefinitely convince them that you actually exist.”¹ At that meeting, with Sauer as ever absent, Richard Hartshorne, the distinguished geographer then at the University of Minnesota, referred to the influence of “this great god”.
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"...Sauer was for more than half a century a guiding beacon."
"To introduce this substantive life of America’s most eminent geographer, crafted by a scholar of great distinction, is a task alike painful and chastening. Painful because both subject and author are no longer with us,..." Rockawaypoint (talk) 02:41, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Wow!! how nasty for you to say I'm wasting your time!! What happened to the guidelines above....
Rockawaypoint (talk) 02:55, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Do you need help in finding modern scholars for this? Would you like to give you list on your user page? Do you have an alma mater that you can access sources through?Moxy🍁 03:12, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Anything you can send.... I'm truly interested. I do hope all will stay on friendly terms here. I'd up on many sources, but always seek out more, old and new. Rockawaypoint (talk) 03:20, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
High interest here in names you can cite as "up-to-date." Rockawaypoint (talk) 03:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The G. Saga does NOT say Tyker was drunk, and mention of Cape Bauld is not 'neutral'

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Major changes needed here. Tyker was NOT drunk, and mention of Cape Bauld this way is improper.

"...All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic."

from the article- "...Sometime around AD 1000, Leif spent the winter, probably near Cape Bauld on the northern tip of Newfoundland, where one day his foster father Tyrker was found drunk, on what the saga describes as "wine-berries." Rockawaypoint (talk) 17:05, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See [2] Doug Weller talk 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Link is broken. Rockawaypoint (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[3] Doug Weller talk 18:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Many other sources have rejected northern Newfoundland as Vinland,... Dr. Stuart C. Brown, Erik Wahlgren, J.R.L. Anderson, T.J. Oleson, Hodding Carter, Graeme Davis, Martyn Whittock. Rockawaypoint (talk) 18:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Stuart C. Brown wrote in "Newfoundland Quarterly" Dec. 1988 "...Dr. lngstad's Procrustean attempt to demonstrate that L'Anse aux Meadows is Leifsbudir is wholly unconvincing..." Rockawaypoint (talk) 18:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Harvard's Einar Haugen, reliable source, wrote on page 140 of his 1942 "Voyages to Vinland",
"...Some of the weaknesses [of some of] these writers bring up against the Greenland Saga are imaginary, as their assertion that Tyrker was drunk when he brought the grapes back, or that Leif loaded his ship with grapes in the spring. Both of these are inferences which the text does not support..."
And, Birgitta Wallace wrote in 1986, [page 300 of Gwyn Jones's 1986 edition, "The Norse Atlantic Saga"] that it was "...impossible to equate northern Newfoundland with Vinland." Rockawaypoint (talk) 18:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t know what you point is. Are you saying the article equates northern Newfoundland with Vinland? Doug Weller talk 18:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying it, the ARTICLE is saying it...
"...Sometime around AD 1000, Leif spent the winter, probably near Cape Bauld on the northern tip of Newfoundland, where one day his foster father Tyrker was found drunk, on what the saga describes as "wine-berries." Rockawaypoint (talk) 19:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree, take it to WP:NPOV or if more applicable WP:RSN Doug Weller talk 12:00, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please explain what exactly you disagree with. Are you claiming the saga says Tyrker was drunk after eating wild grapes?
"...All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Rockawaypoint (talk) 12:33, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rockawaypoint Um, maybe after over 26,000 edits , becoming an Administrator, elected twice to the Arbitration Committee I know that?..We do have an article on Tryker which needs work. So far as I can see, it says that someone else said that. But that needs a source.
I appreciate your use of Wallace, but please see [[WP:LEAD] "The lead should identify the topic and summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight."' What you added isn't a summary. ALso MOS:EDITORIAL, we avoid the word "however".
A more serious issue is that in .L'ANSE AUX MEADOWS AND VINLAND. (English)By: WALLACE, BIRGITTA LINDEROTH. Swedish Press. May2019, Vol. 90 Issue 4, p12-15. 4p. Wallace says "L’Anse aux Meadows cannot be Vinland. Vinland was a land, the same way Iceland and Greenland are lands, countries. But L’Anse aux Meadows is a place described in the sagas as part of Vinland. It is the Straumfjord of Eric’s Saga. It is the same kind of settlement, with the same kind of occupants and type of activities, a winter base from where expeditions went south in the summer. Although artifacts and buildings are typically Norse, the layout, location, and artifacts are different from the sites we know elsewhere in the Norse world. Just such a site is described in the sagas: Straumsfjord. A compelling reason why L’Anse aux Meadows has to be the main site in Vinland lies in demography." Doug Weller talk 14:36, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As you just noted on other matter, "...only one academic is quoted."
Birgitta Wallace is not the only "source" for information on this topic, and not the final word.
Interesting to see above, "...Wallace says "L’Anse aux Meadows cannot be Vinland." But then in your comment at the end "...L'Anse aux Meadows has to be the main site in Vinland..." Is that from B. Wallace? ...and end quotes are missing there? Rockawaypoint (talk) 15:29, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, yes, I've added the end quote marks. Of course she isn't the only one, and where did I use the word "academics" for just one person? Doug Weller talk 15:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On the other hand, what other famous archaeologists should we use? Doug Weller talk 16:09, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How about Anton W. Brogger? Anton Wilhelm Brøgger - Wikipedia Rockawaypoint (talk) 16:15, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Far, far too old a source. I see he wrote something in 1937 Doug Weller talk 16:20, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well what has taken place exactly to allow anyone today to dismiss Brogger? Would Albert Einstein be far, far too old today as a source in physics?  Rockawaypoint (talk) 16:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are equating Einstein's fame with that of Brogger? Do any modern archaeologists use him as a source? Doug Weller talk 16:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He is held in very high regard even today.
He wrote [with a co-author] [4]https://archive.org/details/bwb_KR-488-404/page/n7/mode/2up"The Viking ships: Their ancestry and evolution and
[5]https://archive.org/details/osebergshipbyant00brog Rockawaypoint (talk) 17:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He is not widely cited. https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=anton+brogger+viking&oq=anton+brogger+v Simonm223 (talk) 17:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Especially compared to Einstein. [6] Simonm223 (talk) 17:37, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Archaeology#What do people think of using Anton Wilhelm Brøgger as a source for Vinland? where I've raised the issue. Doug Weller talk 17:39, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So you are saying that Carl O. Sauer is NOT a reliable source? Or what exactly is your objection to having quotes from Sauer added to the article? Rockawaypoint (talk) 14:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Doug, you said something about Carl Sauer and his death in 1975. How does that effect things again? I'm surprised to see how quickly you delete things after I spend the time typing in the information. Maybe people are thinking I'm presenting Sauer and Brogger as 'current' thinking, when all I'm trying to do is show that they were highly respected in their day and should not be left out of the article. Rockawaypoint (talk) 16:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't get a notification of a mention, Doug. I need to reorient myself here, and marshal my sources, but this dispute is old hat. I'll requote what I said in the hatted conversation. Northern Mists (1968) is not a reliable source for this kind of information. Sauer may have been a great geographer, but he was not so great a historian discussing these matters in this outdated book, mainly because he is speculating, drawing rather sweeping conclusions from the scantest historical evidence:

"...then, under pressure from Viking settlers [in Iceland], that they continued on to Greenland and North America, where they settled Hvitramannaland—"Ireland the Great"—in the St. Lawrence River valley in the 10th century. In a further indication of how outdated this book is, Sauer deduces that the L'Anse aux Meadows settlement was Irish rather than Norse, citing the extensive evidence of ironworking at the site and carbon dating."

I know of no recently published works by reliable sources that would support these fantastic theories. Carlstak (talk) 15:25, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Doesn't look as though we should use him. Doug Weller talk 16:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rockawaypoint I think the issue is that you have not demonstrated these two scholars were widely respected in their fields. Simonm223 (talk) 17:11, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I say we put Sauer's 1980 published quote back in. Rockawaypoint (talk) 18:29, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Take a look at the Wikipedia articles on them. Carl O. Sauer - Wikipedia
Anton Wilhelm Brøgger - Wikipedia Rockawaypoint (talk) 17:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Setting aside that Wikipedia is not a reliable source for a moment neither the Sauer article nor the Brøgger one establish they were respected for this. Sauer was quite respected... in geography and poetics of landscape. Not history. We don't even get that much from the Brøgger page which is principally about his political and administrative career. Simonm223 (talk) 17:22, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well it's great to see the Wikipedia article on Sauer says "...He has been called "the dean of American historical geography." Sure seems as though Brogger had a long career in Norway as an archeologist and historian. Have you read anything he wrote on this topic? Rockawaypoint (talk) 17:31, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Anything? Rockawaypoint (talk) 20:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again Sauer being a respected geographer is irrelevant here. It'd be like citing Charles Darwin in a chemistry page. Simonm223 (talk) 23:31, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you sure you want to stick with that idea?.... that "Geography" does not apply here? That sir, rates only as your "opinion". Rockawaypoint (talk) 23:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm perfectly aware of what Geography entails and why it failed to prevent Sauer from misidentifying Norse artifacts as Irish. Simonm223 (talk) 05:09, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Take a look at this one paragraph below from here-- Anton Wilhelm Brøgger – Norwegian Biographical Encyclopedia
Also, look into his 1937 book Vinlandsferdene.
Review here.... By A. W. Brøgger. (Oslo: Gyldendal. 1937. Pp. 208. 10 Kr.) | The American Historical Review | Oxford Academic
==========================
"...Brøgger's importance to Norwegian archaeology is not least due to his extensive administrative and organizational work. He played a leading role in organizing the registration of Norwegian Viking monuments in the British Isles in 1925, and in 1928 he led an archaeological expedition to Shetland and Orkney. In 1936 he led the 2nd International Congress of Archaeologists in Oslo in an excellent manner. That same year he was one of the founders of the Norwegian Archaeological Society, where he served as general secretary until his death. In 1916 he took the initiative to establish the Borre Fund for the promotion of Norwegian archaeology and was chairman of the National Association of Norwegian Museums from 1918 to 1934." Rockawaypoint (talk) 23:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest WP:1AM may provide you with some helpful guidance. Simonm223 (talk) 05:12, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks. Seems Dispute resolution might be needed here. Rockawaypoint (talk) 05:27, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sauer's 1975 draft, published 1980

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See[7] which says it adds no new material, publisher may also not be a RS; User talk:Carlstak You might be interested in these discussions. Doug Weller talk 14:44, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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